Inside Opendoor: The $2.8B Bet with CEO Kaz Nejatian

[00:00] I paid a company to work here. I pay open-door money to work here. That's insane. My salary is $1 and unless stock levels see levels they haven't seen in years, I don't get paid. If you look at the companies you have made a meaningful difference in the history of the world and have become good companies, basically all the founders or CEOs of those companies would have said words that sound like mine. Increase the stock price tomorrow by a penny or by a dollar. That's not the job. [00:30] converges with the company. The company is not the stock price, the stock price is not the company. The company drives the stock price, not the other way around. So if you build a great company, the stock price will reflect that over time. Only way to build a great company is to build something people want. Single largest expense on our income statement was millions of dollars paid to a well-known consulting firm. The advice was basically the following tweet. Do everything worse, but cheaper. And so everything got worse, not cheaper, just worse. And our job is to make it easier for them to own a big deal. [01:00] Peace of America. [01:11] Kaz, welcome to Sorcery. Thanks for having me. [01:14] I don't know if it feels like a long amount of time or a short amount of time for you, but [01:18] I interviewed Keith when you first started, and that was back in September of 2025. [01:24] How have the last six months gone? [01:27] I mean, it's been like an interesting...

[01:30] It's a deeply interesting experience. Like I have a... [01:35] There's a couple of things that you kind of think about when you like are prepping. [01:39] for a new job. [01:41] And... [01:42] But I took, I never thought I would leave my last job. So taking this job was not unlike. [01:48] a thing that I thought would happen. [01:50] But... [01:52] In hindsight, [01:54] It has been so just... [01:56] deeply unmingful. [01:59] For me and my family? [02:01] Um, so like I judge my, um, [02:04] work [02:05] uh week every week i judge it based on like the three vectors they judge called hard valuable fun [02:11] Was the week hard? Was it valuable? Was it fun? [02:14] And it hasn't been that many weeks, but honestly, all of them have been hard. [02:18] all of them have been valuable, all of them have been fun. And it does genuinely feel like we're making progress every single day. [02:27] which is like very rewarding. [02:29] And this was entirely disruptive. [02:31] to your life. You joined a company that was at 50 cents a share, and it was about to be delisted. And then you get pulled in, recruited to this position. [02:40] So what was it like going from Shopify where, I don't know, maybe it was nice and easy and a little bit more linear to something that is completely abstract? I remember when I joined Shopify in 2019, I left Facebook to join Shopify. [02:57] And the number one question that my colleagues would ask me when I chose to join Shopify was, what the fuck are you doing?

[03:05] That was number one, because back then, Shuffleup was [03:08] very broadly shorted, [03:10] Like the day I joined, there was a short, solid report that came out calling, saying Shopify would go bankrupt in 12 months. [03:17] Um, [03:18] And like now, [03:19] Like, honestly, like, [03:21] Even at the time, it was relatively obvious to me. People were like, Toby had built this wonderful thing, and people were misjudging it. But from the outside, it was not, like Shopify back then was not the winner it is today. [03:33] And the process, if we get a process of Shopify over the last few years was not the easiest one. [03:40] It wasn't. [03:41] you know, [03:42] Going to COVID wasn't easy. Coming out of COVID wasn't easy. [03:46] building like with AI wasn't easy getting what the logistics was it wasn't easy. [03:51] But it was rewarding, which is important. [03:55] But there isn't like [03:56] like joined Opendoor was [03:59] From the outside, like I had kind of become obsessed with the company. [04:04] Like I remember, so I for fun take apart [04:07] companies for like for fun. That's what I do. Like I read about the history of companies, I take them apart. And in February 25th, [04:14] I was fine from Dallas home. I remember this like it was yesterday. [04:18] And for reasons that I can't explain to you, I'm like, let's pick up our open door. Let's see what happened to it. And I was on a plane. [04:25] And from the time I took off to the time I landed, it was like a three and a half, four hour flight. [04:30] I remember... [04:32] getting off the plane and being just outraged by what had happened to this company.

[04:36] Really? I was just so angry about it. And like, so then I spent almost every weekend... [04:41] thinking [04:42] about Open Door and going through Open Door and like figure out, using the product, figure out what had happened. What made you angry? [04:49] Look, I think the problem Opendoor is trying to solve is a deeply meaningful one. [04:55] And there's like nothing worse to me than seeing, um, [04:59] Opportunities wasted? [05:02] Like when you see someone who doesn't know how to play basketball that well, [05:07] If they play basketball poorly, they're like, well, [05:09] You're not that good. Like, it's fine. You're good to go do something else. [05:13] When you see someone who's an excellent basketball player just throw away the talent, [05:18] Like everyone gets angry. Everyone's like, no, this should turn out better. [05:22] and open doors should turn out better. [05:24] um so like it got to a point where like at dinner every night my wife and i would talk literally only about open door [05:32] to a point where my wife at one point was like, okay, we've talked about Open Door enough. Can we please just like, just go buy some shares in the company? [05:39] then we can stop talking about this. [05:41] And I said, well, it's not really the type of company that can buy that much shares in. [05:45] Because it's not that big. [05:47] And then she said, how big is a company? I think the market cap was a few hundred million dollars back then. [05:52] I'm like, I don't know, a couple hundred million dollars. [05:54] And then she said, [05:55] But why don't we buy it? [05:57] Um, so like my wife's plan, literally, generally honestly was that would like [06:01] sell everything we owned, [06:02] leverage ourselves as much as we could to [06:04] take OpenDoorPrivate,

[06:06] so we could fix it. [06:07] So I called Keith back in April and I was, "Hey man, [06:11] I'm thinking of doing this. [06:13] Will you do it with me? [06:15] So that was my intro to Opendoor because from the outside, I was just so like, it was so obvious to me this problem was one. [06:22] worthy of solving. [06:24] It was a problem that you should dedicate your life to solving. [06:28] Because. [06:29] when people, when kids grow up. [06:32] and homes that our parents own. [06:35] their life outcomes are better. [06:38] Like when people buy homes, [06:39] crime goes down in neighborhood. [06:42] And like, it's a deeply meaningful problem to solve. [06:46] and it's been basically untouched by technology. [06:50] So I thought it was one worth solving. I'm just, you know, [06:54] Couple months into the job. [06:56] I still feel as strongly about it as I did back then. [06:59] How do you feel about doing this correction, this turnaround, as a public entity versus a private entity? Did you ever think about [07:10] Taking it private? I mean, I was going to... That was my plan. My plan was to take it private. After joining? No, no, it's not... [07:16] Look, I think there's like basically two reasons to... [07:20] Take. [07:21] like this company private, and just only two. [07:24] There's one way in which running a public company is harder than running a private company. Like one real way. [07:32] And that is, [07:34] People will write things about you in newspapers.

[07:37] So if you care about what the Wall Street Journal [07:40] writes about you. [07:41] running a public company is... [07:44] Bithicult. [07:45] Luckily for me, I just don't give a fuck. [07:48] Like, I do not care... [07:50] what things look like. I care a lot about what things are. [07:55] And there's frequently a dissonance between those two things. [07:59] for a very long time, right? [08:02] And over time, the distance gets smaller and smaller as we execute against the mission. [08:07] At the beginning, [08:08] Lots of people are like, [08:10] What the hell is this thing? It will never work, etc. [08:13] Let's look. [08:14] If you care about that, this is harder. [08:17] but [08:18] I never got into fancy clubs when I was a kid. [08:21] I never really cared. [08:25] about [08:26] Like, [08:29] I've never cared about being a Forbes 30 under 30, 40. I've never cared about these things. [08:35] I care about other things, just not these things. So in that way, it's all harder for me. [08:41] Uh, the second way in which like, [08:43] You can say, "Balobu shtick open door." [08:45] Private. [08:46] And that is: [08:47] I think you could reasonably argue that it would be [08:51] Um, [08:52] be more monetarily good [08:54] for me and my family. [08:56] because we have higher... [08:57] Like I believe in the company, we've bought shares in the open market. You can think, but I also don't care about that. [09:03] Like. [09:04] I just don't that much. Like, I'm like... [09:07] My salary is a dollar for a reason. Yeah, let's talk about that. So when you joined...

[09:11] Your salary's a dollar. [09:13] You're weighted heavily on performance, and that's what your equity package will potentially award you. [09:20] How do you... [09:21] balance that and what is the motivation for you behind that versus having that job at Shopify? [09:27] Look, I think there's two things that are true. Let me just like say both of them. [09:31] Um, [09:33] The first is this. [09:35] I find [09:37] that if you do something for money, [09:40] the half-life of your ability to put up with pain is very low. [09:46] Right? [09:47] Everyone intuitively understands this, right? [09:50] But... [09:52] And that's just like, [09:53] a very real thing, but if you do something because you believe in the cause, [09:58] Like, [09:59] you will be much more durable. You'll be able to do a lot more. [10:03] So, [10:05] I do this, I come to work every morning, [10:08] We work very hard at Open Door because we believe in the mission. [10:12] Like everyone who works here believes in the mission. [10:14] I believe in the mission. My family believes in the mission. My six-year-old son believes in the mission. Like, we believe in this mission. [10:20] So for us, [10:21] We're on this journey because the outcome matters. [10:24] Like it matters to us what happens to the average homeowner. And second, I do think like I'm not indifferent to [10:31] The stock price, like, [10:33] um there's no one who's a more highly levered on open door stock price than i am like i'm number one by far [10:40] Right? Like

[10:42] I paid a company to work here. [10:44] Like I get paid a salary of a dollar, but I have to pay for my benefits. So I paid a company, like I pay open door money to work here. [10:51] Um, [10:52] And unless the stock price gets to levels that has not been in in a very, very long time, [10:57] Like this would be a bad financial outcome. [11:00] uh for my family think that's insane i don't know like like i think generally if you look at the companies you [11:09] that have made a meaningful difference in the history of the world and have become good companies. Basically, all the founders or CEOs of those companies would have said words that sound like mine. [11:20] Imagine [11:21] You're in a room with Jeff Bezos [11:24] when Amazon dropped by 90%. [11:28] Or you're in a room with Ernie from Carvano and Carvano dropped 90%. [11:31] Like, they didn't say, like, their position would not have been... [11:35] My job is to increase the stock price tomorrow by a penny. [11:38] or by a dollar. That's not the job. [11:40] Like, [11:42] Over a long period of time, [11:45] the stock price converges with the company. [11:49] The company is not the stock price. The stock price is not the company. [11:52] The company drives the stock price, not the other way around. So if you build a great company, the stock price will reflect that over time. And the only way to build a great company is to build something people want. [12:05] Um, [12:05] I think the rest of it is just... [12:08] genuinely not like [12:10] I think history has proven

[12:13] I don't actually understand this. Like there's like, [12:16] Like, I don't have... [12:18] like Yahoo Finance, [12:21] Like on my laptop, I just don't. [12:24] There's like, you've walked around the office, the stock ticker is nowhere. [12:28] I have a copy. [12:29] on my desk as a copy in the book bar [12:32] of Bill Walsh's book, The Score Takes Care of Itself. Football players who look at the score all the time tend to be not very good football players. [12:42] And people who watch ESPN and look at the football score tend to not be good football players. [12:48] Like our job is to focus on fighting for every single inch, every single yard, every single day. [12:55] And that tends to get you to the right place. [12:57] We were talking about how you took over the company. You're coming in with a mission. [13:02] But I think more importantly, you're really bringing a founder mentality into something that was dead. It was like a shell of a company and shell of a culture. And now there's literally a cult following. You have the army following. [13:17] around you, the open army. And then you have, yeah, you have people like me and people like Keith, who are just pounding the table and want more open doors. So could you share, like, why is it so important to have a founder mentality with such a big turnaround like this? In order to create things that have not been created before, you need like exothermic energy. [13:40] Like, we're not a wizard factory.

[13:43] Like the thing we don't do is like optimize the creation of a thing over and over again and try to turn like $1.10 into $1.12. [13:53] That's not our job. [13:55] Right. If that was our job, [13:57] then you can imagine like a professional manager being good at it, right? Like just look at the knobs, turn them slightly like [14:03] But I find that [14:06] in the history of American corporations. [14:08] And for what it's worth, I think this is a uniquely North American problem because it's not true in Japan, for example. [14:13] but in history of American corporations. [14:17] Yeah. [14:17] you get these [14:19] significant moments of alpha [14:21] followed by a slow decline once managers take over. [14:25] Right. [14:26] And you can think of your favorite big company [14:29] where it had that significant moment of alpha, and then the decline happened. [14:34] So I think the right words to use is not whether the founder is working at the company or not. The right words to use is the founder chair taken or not. [14:43] Is someone sitting in the founder chair [14:45] Or is there a... [14:47] around every single meeting table [14:49] in the company, an empty chair, [14:52] from someone whose job it is to call bullshit on things. [14:56] Right? [14:57] So, look, I'm not... [14:58] anyone's ideal [15:01] Dream of a corporate CEO. [15:04] Like if you... [15:06] Like, [15:06] go to Harvard Business School and imagine what a CEO looks like. It ain't me. [15:12] But I'm very good at building products.

[15:15] Right? And I care a lot about the details of everything. [15:20] And what that allows me to do, allows Open Door to do, is to do things that are unusual. [15:26] We are not going to be a beta company. We're a high alpha company. You can only generate that. You can only generate extraordinary outcomes. [15:34] if you do extraordinary things. [15:37] But the best way to get the same outcome as everyone else [15:40] is grab a consulting firm, [15:42] Ask them what is the best practice in X industry and do that. [15:47] But what that gets you is [15:49] what the industry does. [15:51] Our job is to create like [15:52] create a new world and you can't do that without founder energy [15:56] When you came in, I heard you read all the expense items line by line, and you came across very chunky consulting... [16:04] fee that probably did nothing. But could you talk about the process of coming in and what you cut immediately? I went through literally every single invoice the company had paid for the previous 12 months. [16:15] I'm like, [16:16] I did two things. I went A through like every single employee. [16:20] and every single expense. [16:23] I'm like, well, these are the [16:25] The capital allocation of the company is determined by who it hires, [16:29] I'm like, what do we pay for? [16:31] So I went through everything. And I was just genuinely shocked by how many consultants... [16:35] Build open door money? [16:37] Like it was just like dozens and dozens of external consultants who build open door money for things that I thought were useless. There were consultants billing open door money to create presentations for internal open door meetings. No. Yeah, and I'm like, this is insane.

[16:52] This is just like the nuttiest thing. By the way, I think that's a common pattern in American corporations. [16:56] or there are external consultants whose job it is to help you create presentations [17:01] so you can present it to other people inside your company. [17:04] But that's just insane. It's just nutty. So two interesting things happen. One is, [17:10] We were working on the earnings, on the release that would announce me. [17:15] It was... [17:17] Google Doc, we're working on a release. I'm reading this thing. [17:21] And I put in all caps on top of it. This is before I was working here. [17:25] I put an alt cap above the dock [17:27] "Who is writing this? Whoever it is, can they please stop working here?" And I didn't know, transparently, I didn't know the Google Doc was opened. [17:36] I thought it was just me and the board member, like going back and forth. [17:40] But turns out our external PR firm, who was drafting the release, was in the dock. [17:46] So they... [17:50] resigned before I showed up. [17:52] which was good because we didn't have to pay him [17:55] their 90 days notice period. [17:57] which was helpful. It's very helpful. And the second thing that happened was the single largest expense [18:03] on our income statement was millions of dollars [18:07] paid to a well-known consulting firm [18:09] whose advice can be approximated as the following. [18:14] We paid him $5 million for this. [18:16] This voice was basically the following tweet. [18:19] Do everything worse but cheaper.

[18:23] And so everything got worse. [18:25] Not cheaper, just worse. Because that's literally what happens when you come and say, "Cool, you're going to do everything you're doing right now, but cheaper." [18:32] And everyone rationally understands if you do everything you're doing right now, [18:36] at lower cost [18:38] you get worse quality. [18:39] That's like not a, that's not like my, [18:43] My five-year-old daughter could tell you this. [18:46] but we spent millions of dollars to learn this lesson. [18:49] So, um... [18:50] part of [18:52] our job at opendoor and the company like [18:54] The entire company is now dedicated to this. [18:57] If you go around, you'll see people have stickers. [19:02] You can actually find them. [19:04] but they charge us by the month. [19:06] Pay with your life. [19:09] Like we are dedicated to getting rid of every single thing that we pay for that is not deeply useful to our mission. [19:17] Sorcery is brought to you by Brex, the financial stack trusted by more than 30,000 companies, including one in three venture-backed startups in the U.S. Nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash. Brex is literally built to help founders avoid that. Unlike traditional banks that let your money sit idle, chipping away at it with fees, Brex is designed to help you spend smarter and move faster. [19:47] powerful account. You can send and receive money globally at lightning speeds, get 20 times the standard FDIC coverage through their partner banks, and even high yield from day one. With same day and even same hour liquidity, access your funds anytime. Companies like Scale AI, DoorDash, Service Titan, HIMSS, Anthropic, Flexport, Robinhood, and Plaid trust and use Brex.

[20:17] Turing is training the next generation of AI with tasks that require real expertise and real world judgment. That's why companies like NVIDIA, Anthropic, Salesforce, and Gemini partner with Turing. Turing builds realistic reinforcement learning environments and data systems based on real operational traces. The kind of infrastructure Frontier Labs need to train superintelligence. Visit Turing.com slash S-O-U-R-C-E-R-Y. [20:47] When I talk to Keith, [20:50] He mentioned a couple of very aggressive things that he wanted to happen to the company. He rejoined the board, you joined the company, you're CEO. The board seems super hands on. When I talked to him, he talked about how [21:05] There were 1,400 employees. He wanted it to cut down to around like 300. [21:11] Had that, has that happened? I mean, no, look, I think there's like, I think Keith's insight, [21:16] was a correct one, genuinely correct one, which is [21:19] that for the output Opendoor was getting, [21:23] it did seem to have an unusually high [21:27] OPEX. [21:29] My problem is also a different one, which is this. [21:32] which is, [21:33] I am offended. [21:35] when people do things that human beings should no longer do. [21:39] Like if you walked into an office building, [21:43] and you saw someone using the Gutenberg Press

[21:47] to create an internal memo. [21:50] for distribution, you'd be offended. [21:52] If you saw a bunch of people running around delivering mail like it's 1962, you'd be offended. [21:58] But it's like, this is just not what human beings should do today. [22:01] Because we've learned lots of stuff. [22:03] So, [22:05] I think generally, like, I think there's, like, [22:08] There was a lot of work happening at Open Door. [22:10] where [22:12] Let me give an example. [22:14] But when I got here, and you went to opendoor.com and typed in your address, [22:18] which say, great, we're going to send someone to your house to take pictures. [22:22] Someone will come to your house to take pictures. [22:24] then would ship these pictures [22:27] to overseas [22:30] where someone on a laptop, on a very bad laptop, on a Chromebook would look at them. [22:35] Circle... [22:36] The areas that need to get repaired. [22:38] that they would send that to someone else overseas. [22:40] And then they would just do that. And then they'd done Shane. So between the time, like... [22:44] you put your address in and you [22:47] got an offer to be 11 human beings who touched that. [22:50] That's insane. That's just an insane outcome. Like, [22:53] Today, zero human beings are not looping many of our flows. [22:57] Like AI does all of that. [22:59] which means our human beings can do things that are actually good for the mission. [23:02] Let me give you another example. This is actually my favorite one. [23:05] too. [23:05] Because of the advice we got from this consulting firm, [23:08] We offshored [23:10] Customer support. [23:12] of Ovador to Mexico. [23:14] And in my second week here, I was sitting with the head of our customer support team.

[23:19] Like, let's call together. [23:21] our customer support line. [23:23] Because I do this, I use our product. [23:25] So I picked up the phone and called the customer support line. [23:27] And I said, "Hey." [23:30] I'm Kaz. [23:31] I would like to buy this house that I'm seeing [23:35] uh, on the website, how do I do that? [23:38] And the customer support agents said, [23:40] I'm not kidding about this. [23:42] Said, [23:43] Have you heard of Google.com? No. I'm like, yes. He goes... [23:48] Could you type in google.com on your browser? [23:52] and type in how to buy a home from Opendoor. [23:56] Mike. [23:58] I can, on any one down the chain from there. [24:01] Look, [24:02] If you have human beings doing that work, it is bad for that person, bad for open door and bad for capitalism. Like, I think we should have... [24:13] All we should be able to say is this: [24:15] that every single person that works at Opendoor is a most efficient human being possible at the thing they do. [24:21] And I think that's the end goal of the company. And we will work towards that every single day. So what employee changes have you made? I mean, look, one of the first things we did was Open Door used to be a remote company. You've noticed [24:36] We're no longer remote. [24:37] On my first day at OpenDoor, I said, "Hey, we're going back to the office. Everyone has seven days." [24:42] And so a bunch of our colleagues decided not to join us on that journey and left the company because they didn't want to work for an in-person company. [24:49] We wished him the best.

[24:51] Um, [24:53] You know, we had double-digit attrition because of that. And it was, you know, good people. We wished them the best. [24:58] but the company got smaller as a result of that. [25:00] we have a lot of [25:02] If you look [25:04] around. We have hired more [25:06] YC founders [25:08] Aim to open door since I started in any company. Why? Because I believe that you can only do extraordinary things with founders around or people who act like founders. [25:19] So if you just... [25:20] Walk the floor, you'll see that there's a shocking number of people with an orange "Y" undershirt. [25:26] Um, [25:27] So quite a few of them are... [25:30] you know, [25:31] Entire mortgage team is YC founders, our entire escrow team is YC founders. [25:35] Like, we're at, and the company is like, [25:38] The goal of the company is to become far more technical [25:41] to look more like a software company, [25:43] than a manufacturing company. [25:46] That's a path we're walking down. Has it been hard to maintain culture with that? If you're bringing in an entirely new culture to something that was... I don't think Opel and Door had much of a culture. Transparently, I think what happens to companies when they're run by professional managers is culture atrophies. [26:03] Like what happens, this is a real thing. People think... [26:07] People have a caricature in mind of what leadership is. [26:11] They think of the job of a leader is to stand in front of a room and be like mascot as CEO. [26:16] Like, "rah, rah, rah, we shall go over that hill." [26:19] Like, that's not what the job is.

[26:22] The job is to hire great people, train them well, tell them what [26:27] pick them what the priorities are and inspire them in that order. [26:31] Right. That's the order of importance. [26:33] I think lots of people like [26:36] pretend culture is like [26:38] beer on tap in the office? [26:41] That's just lazy. [26:42] That's the application of your responsibility to people's careers. So like, I don't think Open Door had that much of a, I think it was like, [26:51] I find the best thing for culture is this. [26:53] Tell people who you are. [26:56] Say things that people can reasonably disagree with. [26:59] Because if you say a thing everyone agrees with, you've said nothing useful. [27:02] Right? [27:03] and then win together. [27:05] Like the best thing for culture is doing hard things together in person. [27:11] Like high school football teams have cultures. [27:14] because they do things together that are hard in person. [27:18] Right? [27:20] isn't that much of a culture is like, you know, the Dunder Mifflin office in like office. It's just not, it's not a culture. [27:27] Right. [27:28] Like having. [27:30] Taco Tuesdays is not a culture. [27:32] It's like a caricature of what other people should do. [27:35] For you, it seems like you're entirely authentic to yourself. I listened to a couple of your interviews in the past. There's a really good one with Anthony Pompliano. And you were talking about how you sold the company, I think it was to Facebook, [27:49] and you join and you're cursing around, you know, you're dropping F-bombs left and right, and you're hit with the reality that you can't talk like that in there, and it was...

[28:01] a hindrance to you and your personality. So how do you carry that [28:06] in this role. It's generally hard. And like I talked to company transparently about this. [28:12] I am not close to being well-rounded. [28:15] I'm not a good approximation of an average human being. [28:19] I'm just not. This is a very real thing. I'm edgy in basically every way one can be edgy. [28:25] So I have two choices, right? [28:27] Choice one is I can go become well-rounded and become a pale pink imitation of myself. [28:34] Uh, [28:35] Or two, I can be my, like, not become well-rounded, become edgier and surround myself by people who are edgy in the opposite way. [28:43] I've chosen a second path. [28:45] because [28:46] I don't want to pretend something I'm not. [28:49] I don't ask anyone to pretend something they're not. But I think the best way to explain this is this: if you go [28:55] to an Italian restaurant. [28:59] and complained that the sushi is bad. [29:01] That's your fault. [29:03] That's just your fault. [29:05] But if you go to a place labeled restaurant, [29:08] Where the menu includes literally everything on there that you can order, and you order something that's bad, that's their fault. [29:15] Right? [29:16] My job is to actually describe the type of place this is. [29:21] And lots of people will not want to work here. [29:23] In fact, [29:25] Less than one in a hundred people will ever want to work here. That's fine. [29:29] Like we have a very high bar, like our career page tries to do a very good job repelling you and convincing you not to apply to come here.

[29:37] But once you're here, we want you to be committed to the mission. [29:40] My job is to accurately describe what it feels like to work here. [29:45] I think people say I'm honest about it. Before we started and the cameras were on, we were talking about how important attention to detail is. [29:54] and staying true to your quality bar. [29:57] And so with that, [30:00] and this, you know, aggressive personality, [30:04] How much of that and that personality and maintaining a quality bar do you think is synonymous with [30:10] I don't know, honestly. I can tell you this, like I try very hard [30:15] to [30:17] criticize things, not the people who created those things. [30:21] I think it's kind of useless to hold your past self guilty [30:24] So if you see me in a product review, I frequently say this fucking sucks. [30:29] I very rarely say "you fucking suck" [30:32] Like the work. [30:33] is the work of Opendoor. [30:36] So Opendoor has failed [30:38] when it produces something that is not good. [30:41] The individual people who work on it may be excellent, [30:45] Bye. [30:45] So we just have to keep working at that. And that's like a real thing. [30:49] I... [30:51] don't have another way of doing this. [30:55] For what it's worth, [30:57] I think there have been successful people who don't pay that much attention to details. [31:02] who are relatively macro-driven. They place good macro bits [31:06] on what the economy is going to do.

[31:09] and don't pay that much attention to details. [31:11] And that can be a very successful... [31:15] um, [31:16] or at least profitable career. [31:18] I'm not that guy. [31:21] I'm just not. [31:23] i care a lot about the pixels i care a lot about the api i care a lot about the database [31:28] I care a lot about the words we say. I call our customer service lines. I talk to our salespeople. I care a lot. [31:35] That this thing that we put out there is a reasonable representation of ourselves. And every day we should wake up and be deeply ashamed of it. [31:44] I want to make it better. So I don't know. I don't know. The answer to your question is, I don't know how much of that is important for the average person's success. [31:51] I can tell you that I don't know how else to do it. [31:54] Like if I, honestly, it's a very real thing. [31:58] I grew up as an immigrant. [32:00] And I had a very hard time [32:04] with cultural norms? [32:05] that were commonly understood if you grew up in North America. [32:10] So, [32:12] I... [32:14] There was a club I wanted to join. [32:17] And I applied to join that. [32:19] uh, when I was 18. [32:21] I got rejected. I applied joint when I was 22. I got rejected. I applied joint when I was my 25. I got rejected. [32:30] I finally got accepted as a member of this club. [32:33] when my wife became the president of the club. [32:38] Like, I'm just like not...

[32:42] I'm just not good at the type of things that the average CEO would be good at. I'm terrible at glad-handing. I can't work a room. [32:51] But I can look at [32:53] Like. [32:56] You know, I can look at [32:57] DevDocs. [32:59] And look in API shape. [33:01] and look at the pennies [33:03] that gets spent adding [33:05] product features and make them better. It's so interesting you say that because for this role, this role in particular in this moment of time, for any public company being public facing is key to it. [33:21] and [33:22] Having a presence online, you've had a tremendous presence on X. You're building out a community there. I know you're also doing live streams on Robin Hood and throughout various chapters. Our earnings were the most watched earnings in history. [33:37] Really? The last National Open House we did? [33:39] broke records for how many people watched it. No. Yeah, by a lot. But not by a lot, by a lot. We should fact check this, but I think at one point, we had 55,000 live viewers. [33:48] What? Not like live viewers are the actual thing. [33:52] which is like the average earnings call is watched by approximately 3.5 people. [33:57] Like with 50, like just lots of other people watch it. We had 55,000 live viewers at one point. That's pretty cool. Yeah. [34:03] But it's okay. So how do you think about that? So you're very product driven, but this is also very marketing driven and being a public person. So, okay, how much of your role is the marketing part or the product part? Or is it both? And how do you do it all? I think there's a,

[34:19] I am lucky. [34:21] that. [34:23] X [34:24] and other tools allow me to [34:28] Talk directly to people. [34:31] And long-form interviews are a thing today. [34:35] I'm telling you, like... [34:38] two decades ago, I would have been terrible because like, [34:41] When I can talk directly to people, I can look at someone in the eye, say, hi, I'm Kaz. This is who I am. [34:47] I think they can see me and see I'm being genuine and honest. And they're like, cool, let me give this person some rope. [34:53] But when I talk to people through people, [34:57] and short form, like I end up always sounding like an idiot and not sounding like [35:02] at least inauthentic, [35:06] Like, [35:07] You have questions. Apparently, you... [35:09] Like I had gotten some sense of like what this was supposed to be. I didn't look at it because... [35:14] Like having, if I had looked at it, [35:17] I would have sounded fake. - Yeah. [35:20] So I don't prep for these conversations. [35:23] I came from there, sat here and we're talking. There's no like [35:27] We don't have a PR department. But if you email press at opendoor.com, get an email back saying we don't have a PR department. If you want to talk to someone, DM Kaz on X. [35:37] And then I usually respond. And I've gotten myself in trouble, I admit. [35:41] Because I respond on X to people who DM me, and sometimes I don't realize they're reporters. Oh. [35:46] I like [35:47] That gets coded. [35:49] And like, anyway, but yeah, I think, I think,

[35:51] Like the modern communication methods allow me to be authentic and long. [35:56] for him. [35:57] which is like helpful. It helps a lot. It helps like, [36:02] fit me into this new world? [36:04] Which I, look, I... [36:05] I wouldn't have had this job 10 years ago or 20 years ago. Just zero chance. Have you said anything on X you regret? Oh, yeah, lots. Like what? Oh, no, like lots. Like I've said like so many things I regret. [36:16] I tell you there was a thing I saw on X years ago [36:19] that got taken out of context. [36:22] that I regret a little. [36:25] I read [36:27] a lot [36:28] Because [36:29] I'm a nerd and I do. [36:32] so there's a book called protestant work ethic by max weber [36:36] Um, [36:37] which, [36:39] I think is insanely insightful about the modern world. [36:44] So I quoted it on X. [36:47] years ago [36:49] on talking about like the importance of policy and work ethic as a book, not an idea. Like it was a capital P or like [36:56] The book is called "Prosent Ethic" and like [36:58] It doesn't matter. [36:59] So, [37:01] I quit his book. [37:02] I think people thought I was saying that like [37:06] Only Protestants work hard. [37:10] which I thought was such an unreasonable take, [37:12] on like [37:14] the post, like you have to really twist yourself into a knot to believe that. [37:18] I grew up Muslim, I've been to more mosques than the average person.

[37:22] Like, [37:23] Anyway, I thought it was like, [37:24] So that was a... [37:26] It was only annoying because I think like [37:29] my colleagues had to defend me and I felt weird. [37:32] But no, I don't, like, I don't, [37:34] I don't, [37:36] Like I don't post things on X. [37:39] because I think there's zero chance of causing trouble. [37:44] I just don't. [37:46] Because if I did, I would become like, [37:49] I'll be hiding in that corner crying. It's just not... [37:52] Well, they do. [37:54] I don't recommend that people adopt this method of running a company. [38:00] That's really weird. Like, [38:02] When you work like I do, [38:04] and have the job that I do [38:06] It is not... [38:09] Is at times lonely? [38:11] In fact, it's very frequently lonely, so I don't recommend doing it this way. [38:14] If you can do it the way that is traditionally done, I recommend you do it that way. [38:18] But this is how I can do it. Why is it lonely? It's just like, look, it's a hard... [38:24] It's a hard... Look, I... [38:25] deeply admire my colleagues. They're just [38:29] There's just wonderful, wonderful people. [38:31] But if you talk to like anyone who's a founder type, [38:34] Like. [38:35] you're essentially [38:38] at perpetual war [38:41] and [38:42] It isn't like, it's not relaxing. [38:45] But, [38:46] There's a very real thing. Look, it used to be true. [38:51] that

[38:53] If you were a teacher, [38:56] You could earn one salary. [38:58] buy a home... [39:00] in Arkansas, raise your family and be happy. That used to be true not that long ago in this country. [39:06] And the fact that it used to be true that not long ago in this country is the main difference between America and the rest of the world. [39:13] It is why America is a country it is because people have owned the ground they stood on and raised their family there and said, I belong here. You cannot tell me what to do. [39:24] The fact that it's no longer true is the police saddening to me. [39:27] So like, [39:29] I am only... Like, I'm... [39:31] massively driven by the mission. Like, we talk about that teacher in Kansas City, that plumber in Arkansas, and our job is to make it easier for them to own a piece of America. [39:43] And so that makes it incredibly rewarding. [39:46] It doesn't mean thought hard. [39:48] or lonely, but it is very rewarding. I think this mission matters so much. And that's what has kept me around so long. And what's kept the people who have been here for a while is recognizing how broken the existing process is. And the fact that we believe that our solution is not just important to our customers, but to America, like generally. And just having again, another chance at, you know, kind of cracking that code is just something I'm really grateful for. [40:15] Some of you may not have heard this yet, but our sponsor Public just launched something called Generated Assets, and it brings AI into investing in a way I've honestly never seen before. Here's how it works. You type in an idea like AI-powered supply chain companies with positive free cash flow or defense tech companies growing revenue over 25% year over year. Public's AI then dispatches a swarm of agents that scan every single US stock, evaluates them, and instantly builds a custom

[40:45] why each stock is included. And before you invest, you can even backtest your idea against the S&P 500 so you're making decisions with real context, not just guessing. And beyond generated assets, Public lets you invest in stocks, bonds, options, crypto, all in one place. They'll even give you an uncapped 1% match when you transfer your investments over from another platform. If you want to build a portfolio that actually reflects your thesis, visit public.com slash sorcery, paid for by Public Investing. Full disclosures in the description. [41:15] Founders. I love how much all that stuff enrages you. You're like, this is wrong. We need to redo it. [41:37] And I don't know, I feel like some people would feel... [41:41] They would they would hesitate towards taking that action. But why do you think it's so important to take action? [41:48] I don't know. Look, I think there's... First of all, this is how I am. I've always been... [41:53] Like. [41:54] this [41:56] The time between decision and action has been always short, [41:58] in my life. [42:00] Like. [42:02] We've moved across country in Monday's notice. [42:05] Like. [42:05] I took this job within like. [42:08] the entire negotiation for this job was like 10 days or something. Like, so I've always been that [42:13] Person? [42:14] But I also think that like

[42:17] People miss price risk in their head. [42:20] And they think weighting reduces risk. And in my experience, it just fucking doesn't. [42:26] Like, it doesn't, right? All it does is take everything [42:29] time away from time you could be spending doing other things. [42:32] It's like, [42:33] What's the worst that could happen? We'll just paint over that wall again. [42:37] Like, let's just go do that thing, then move on to the next thing, you know? Mm-hmm. And that's core to your whole, uh, I don't know, like, I don't know, what is it? Like, it's not like a catchphrase, but I guess, eat those or something like that. But it seems like it's entirely core to your whole faster... [42:52] Like, it's not like the fashion is not like a new line. I've been saying this my entire career. Like, I value speed. [43:00] above everything else. [43:02] like everything else. My job is to learn more. Like all companies are, literally all companies are, [43:09] are a collective effort to learn. If we learn faster, we do more. [43:14] It's all that matters, right? But now, if we do things faster, we'll also be wrong more frequently. [43:20] But we would have been wrong that frequently just over a more stretched out amount of time. [43:26] So let's just learn faster. [43:27] So who's on the board? I've looked at the list. It's an incredible list of names. Look, our board, look, I think there's kind of two ways to build a board. [43:36] For a company? [43:38] The first is... [43:40] you built a board [43:43] such that people who are on the board get out of your way

[43:47] and show up to meeting once a quarter, have some shrimp cocktail, put up their hand, and then get back on the Peva Jets and go away. [43:55] Like the most common way American boards are built, right? [43:58] Like, find people who sound impressive, [44:02] like whoever had career but who've usually been retired for many years [44:06] So therefore they don't have any of your recent experience. [44:09] Put them on a board. [44:12] And [44:13] Just... [44:15] optimize for them saying yes over and over again. That's one way of doing this. [44:18] That feels like an obscene waste of [44:21] time and money to me [44:23] Imagine having to do a song and dance in front of people where you know the answer will be yes. Like, what is the point of that? [44:30] deeply useless. [44:32] The second thing you can do is to say, hey, [44:35] Who are the people [44:37] where I would pay money to have dinner with them. [44:42] Like who are the group of people that like I would pay money to have dinner with such that they can talk about my job? [44:48] So I talked to one of our board members this morning. [44:51] I talked like I talked I should talk more than yesterday. [44:54] So my frequency of communication with the board is way higher than the average CEOs. [45:01] But we also understand that their job is to give advice and my job is to do things. And I ask them for advice all the time. [45:09] Like, I think... [45:10] I think they thought I was kidding when I said it would get texts from me almost every day, but they do. [45:14] Thank you. [45:15] And they're excellent. Just, generally, I would put up our board against any other board.

[45:19] Like we have... [45:21] People who... Who's on it. So our lead independent director is Eric Federer, who is from Lenar. [45:30] one of the greatest companies in the history of America, the largest builder in America. [45:35] Keith and Adam, who are probably two of the best investors... [45:40] and [45:41] Silicon Valley. [45:42] Eric, who founded this place, [45:44] and is just genuinely wonderful. [45:48] And Dana, who has a very long history in residential real space, real estate understands it deeply. [45:55] and David. [45:56] who was an interim CEO of Fannie, understands mortgage financing, understands the space, [46:03] is deeply in tune with a part of my job where I am objectively less good. [46:09] which is understanding why stocks do what they do. [46:13] And he's just an excellent board. What have they been measuring you on? [46:20] So look, actually I had a very good conversation with... [46:25] our board members before I joined, and I talked to all of them before I joined. [46:28] Um, [46:29] I got, I was lucky in that [46:33] It was a double opt-in system. [46:35] for me and the board, I'm like, cool, we're like in this together. [46:38] I remember having conversations with one of them. [46:40] Uh, [46:42] 3 a.m. one night where I'm like, hey, I will do this, but you have to commit to also do this for the next three years. You and I are doing this together. [46:49] And I said, I had a similar conversation with a few of them.

[46:53] And the conversation with all of them was this. [46:57] I will optimize [47:00] my day-to-day work for what it is and not what it looks like. [47:05] Like, there were times where it will look weird. [47:08] And my ask of you is always ask, is this actually weird or does it look weird? [47:13] If it looks good, please give me rope. [47:15] If it... [47:16] It's weird. [47:17] Push back. Ask me questions. [47:20] So that's been like primary... [47:22] back and forth, [47:23] And so what we have is a more involved community. [47:26] Um, [47:28] conversation. [47:30] More luck. [47:31] we don't go from like [47:33] three months without talking. [47:35] But I think for my first... [47:38] months at a job I talk to one board member at least every day [47:42] Because we were like, [47:44] Look, when I got here, the company [47:46] The company's balance sheet had like a ticking time bomb on it. [47:50] like it wasn't obvious how the company was going to survive that taking time. But now luckily we've [47:54] Clean it up. [47:55] The balance sheet is incredibly healthy. [47:57] But for the first like 10 days, it was just not that obvious. What's the weirdest thing you've done? For once, I don't recognize it when I do weird things. [48:06] Thank you. [48:06] Like people afterwards tell me that was weird. [48:10] But [48:11] They don't feel weird to me, otherwise I probably wouldn't do them. [48:15] I don't know. Look, I think people would say we went back to office in an odd way. [48:22] Like I showed up on a Monday, my first Monday at work, and I said, hey, everyone, by next Monday, we're back in offices.

[48:28] At that point, we didn't have offices. [48:31] Like we didn't know where people were going to go. [48:35] So we had to like [48:36] like [48:37] The team had to go sign leases. [48:40] Open up offices, get badges. [48:44] I'm like, [48:44] People have to pick what they're going to move to. [48:48] like relatively quickly. [48:52] So I think that was [48:53] Unusual? [48:55] It did feel weird to me, but I agree it was unusual. Is that weird? It could be weirder, if I want to be honest. Good. I'm for this. You should do weirder things, honestly. [49:06] I'm going to try very hard not to optimize for that. Don't hold back. I'm not. In case it's not obvious. It's not like... Even if I wanted to hold back, I wouldn't know how to. [49:19] When I prepared, I re-listened to the conversation we had with Keith, and he said some really lovely things about you. [49:25] This was right at the courtship. It was a beautiful moment. [49:29] But... [49:30] He said, well, one, he said 99% [49:33] of everything matters, [49:35] Everything that matters is a CEO. [49:37] So picking you and having you join [49:41] That's a big deal. [49:43] He said in describing you, [49:45] He's both bold and ambitious, but very disciplined and rigorous and analytical, and that's a rare combination. [49:52] A company like Opendoor needs to be rigorous and analytical, but it can't sacrifice the ambition and the boldness, and the willingness to do things and push the envelope

[50:01] to create [50:03] and innovate. [50:04] It's kind. I mean, I think there's a very, I think if we're like going back in time, there is a very, there are some things that are odd about me. [50:12] I was, um, [50:15] In high school, I was both... [50:18] a rugby player and an athlete. [50:21] I did math competitions on the weekends and I played rugby. [50:25] Um, so I have... [50:27] like [50:28] A nerd's mind but a relatively high pain tolerance? [50:33] where, like, outcomes [50:36] and that I think has been helpful to me in my career. [50:39] and that I can [50:42] understand risk better than most people can, [50:45] but I'm not afraid of it. [50:47] And so that has been genuinely helpful. [50:51] And I'm glad Keith agrees. [50:53] From your time at Shopify, what were the biggest lessons you learned there from Toby? [50:59] First of all, Tobi is one of one. [51:02] Um, like there's a reason why everyone says he is the founder other founders like. [51:07] He's one of one. Let's just, like, I think there's no... [51:10] It's hard to exaggerate that. [51:13] Thank you. [51:14] The thing I deeply appreciated about Toby is he had found words for ideas that are hard to describe. [51:21] Let me give you a... [51:23] the one that I think is incredibly important. [51:26] There is an idea in finance called a discount rate.

[51:31] I went to business school and they said there's only three rules you learn in business school. [51:35] Money is good. More money is better. Money now is better than money later. Those are the three rules of business school. [51:41] Um, [51:42] So everyone has this intuition about [51:45] discount rates, i.e. if you give me $100 today, that's better than $100 tomorrow. [51:51] But unfortunately, everyone has a wrong intuition about it. [51:54] People apply too large a discount rate to future. [51:58] So, [52:00] What ends up happening is people very frequently sell future growth at a massive discount. [52:06] for today's [52:07] Stock price. [52:09] And a result of that, by the way, very objectively, is PayPal. [52:13] Like over and over again, that company made all the wrong decisions because they cared more about today. [52:19] than 10 years from now and guess what it is now 10 years from now [52:22] and the company's in deep trouble. [52:24] I realize that most public company CEOs also don't talk this openly about other public companies, but [52:29] It's true. [52:31] So, but Toby had this very wonderful [52:34] mentality of [52:36] applying essentially a zero discount rate [52:40] to future growth. [52:42] He was just like, it's like, cool, growth tomorrow or growth today, I'm indifferent. I will never sacrifice growth tomorrow for growth today. [52:47] And if you do that in your head, what actually ends up happening is because human beings always misunderstand compounding growth. [52:54] because you end up getting way higher growth later on. [52:56] So I think it's a very hard thing to do in practice. [53:01] Because you have to look at a chart and say, nah, I'll take some of it later.

[53:06] That's very hard, but it is why Shopify is just [53:11] I think there's like. [53:13] two SaaS companies that stand differently than the rest. It's like Palantir and Shopify, there's up to two. [53:20] I think it's partially because they do things that are just so different than every other company. As we wrap up talking about the future, we could model this out over 10 years. [53:30] But I also know you work weekly. [53:33] So what are you looking forward to next week? Oh, it's gonna be great. I'm actually really excited about this. [53:39] So by the time, when will this release? Monday. [53:42] Okay, by the time this releases, our mortgage product will be out in beta. [53:45] I won't tell you where. [53:47] I'm really, really excited about it. [53:50] Um, [53:51] I think it would be... [53:53] It's early. It's very early. We haven't launched it, but it is going to be very good. [53:56] so I'm actually going to spend some next week doing personal customer support on the product. Fun. Like if you call the phone number that appears on the page it'll go to my cell phone. Do you know what the number is? I do but I'm not going to say it. Oh. Because we don't want to ruin the test. Okay. But one, um [54:13] I'm really excited about that. [54:14] We have our PM offsite next week. So all the product managers at OpenDoor report directly to me. [54:20] They're all ICs. They all report to me. [54:22] so we have our product manager offsite next week [54:26] where we're going to go through every project in the company. I review every project we have every single week. So we're going to do that next week. [54:33] We're shipping a new underwriting model, we're shipping a new offer model.

[54:38] we're shipping uh we're shipping a lot next week i'm really excited about it and this by the way this is like the most [54:44] I'm good at this part of my job. Like shipping product is what I'm good at. And it's where I get my energy from. [54:50] Today just happens to be earnings day, which is not where I get my energy from. But next week is going to be amazing. Amazing. I'm glad I asked that question then. [54:58] Thanks. Well, thank you, Kaz. Thanks for having by. I appreciate it. Can you, Ajin, can you show me the shots of each... [55:07] what it looks like when we're sitting. Just so I can see the lighting. This is Asian and that's Brett. [55:12] Hey guys. [55:13] Thanks for coming down, man. [55:14] How have you been doing this for? [55:16] Not that long. How long is not that long? [55:19] Um, [55:20] With this whole production, [55:23] situation. [55:25] Thank you. [55:26] Probably last May. Cuh. [55:28] I got my Breck sponsorship, which I know Keith has some hardship in his mouth. It's fine. Keith has hardship in for a lot of things. He's hilarious. Like, it's great. He's hilarious. [55:40] That started last May and then like, [55:44] And I'm sure you're similar, but like every week I put something out, we have to increase the quality like 10 times. So it's just constantly iterating. It's the very the Red Queen's race of giving a fuck about the quality bar. [55:59] is [56:01] Very painful, but necessary. It's so painful. Yeah. I... [56:06] literally try not to have an aneurysm every week when I'm like

[56:10] Why is the audio fucked? Like, we've been doing this so many times. Like, why is the audio bad? No, you should see me review, like, products. It's, like, very, like... The problem is this, right? Like, the advice you get from people is that you need to... [56:25] that could be okay with more things. [56:28] But the people who give you advice [56:30] All of them are not inspiring. [56:33] Yeah. [56:35] like, like it was very, um, [56:39] It's very real. Like, like, [56:40] It's like especially if it's your own thing, [56:44] But you need to give a fuck about every little bit of it. [56:49] Like I, like this is very, like I used to, when I was at Shopify, one of the things I used to do is like, um, [56:54] walk into conference rooms and test the markers, the whiteboard markers. [56:59] And like anytime there was one that wasn't working, I would send a message to our facilities and hey, like, [57:05] Because I thought it was such a... [57:06] perfect example of giving a fuck about. [57:10] like the detail of the thing. Yeah. [57:13] So, my... [57:16] We all think. [57:18] All right, so we're gonna... [57:20] You probably saw the sheet, but you probably don't even need to see... [57:23] A sheet. We're just, we're going to go through... I haven't seen the sheet. You haven't seen the sheet? No. Oh my God. It's okay. I trust you. We're going to go through the last six months... [57:34] metrics, performance, how you're measuring things, [57:37] macro, it would be really good even in the beginning to like set the backdrop of the macro situation of housing market.

[57:43] in America and [57:46] your positioning [57:47] and that will go into the product, we'll go into the major changes. I want to go deeper into the board. [57:54] I just feel like the board has been a major, major part of all this. [57:59] And then I have some fun quotes from... [58:03] Keith. [58:04] Cool. From our conversation in September. [58:07] Yeah. [58:08] That's good. [58:09] Let's talk, Rul.