Ep. 112: Feelings Check In. 1) BTC ETF update 2) NYTimes sues OpenAI 3) Feeling on crypto's bad brand

[00:00] Guess what? Boys Club is doing our very first conference called Brand New. Dina, what are we going to be talking about? So we're going to be covering a lot of the stuff that we cover on this podcast. Crypto, of course, the new internet, digital culture, emerging technology. We'll be at the Austin proper on March 12th. And we're pulling in some of the smartest people we know. It's going to be very fun. Tickets are now live and they will never be as cheap as they are right now. [00:30] Today, go buy your ticket. Members and zaddy holders get special pricing. And if you aren't a member, you can apply to attend brand new. So go to boysclub.vip backslash brand new link in show notes to get all the details and can't wait to see you in Austin. Yeehaw. Hey, we're back at it. We're podcast hosts once again. [00:52] We're here in 2024. [00:55] hitting you with the best and brightest on the internet. [00:59] Have you been seeing all of the Jeremy Allen White stuff going around today? [01:04] the photo shoot that he did? [01:05] Yeah, for... [01:07] Levi's? No. Calvin Klein. Calvin Klein, of course. Oh my gosh, so stupid. So sorry. I hate to be this way, but like, wow. Wow. [01:16] He looks incredible. He looks great. He looks great. He's been hitting the... [01:21] weights you know summer bodies are made in the winter so anyway that's been absorbing my timeline today twitter has been feeling like really i can't tell if

[01:30] my [01:31] algorithmic behavior over... [01:35] the holidays was so delinquent. [01:38] that [01:39] now my Twitter is stupid or if nobody is posting anything smart on Twitter. [01:44] It has been quiet, dry, not a lot coming out. I mean, it's January 4th. I think people are still ramping up. [01:53] I feel like everybody's that, you know, that video of the bear that's been hibernating. [01:58] And is coming out of hibernation and looks like, oh my gosh, it's incredible. There's this, [02:04] picture of this bear and it just looks it doesn't look like a bear like its hair is all flat it looks confused it's like what's happening and I feel like that is everybody this week totally totally okay we're here today with the feelings check-in Dina's gonna educate me take me out of my Jacob allergy Jeremy Allen white hole that I've been living in and get me to some more evolved thinking [02:34] going to do some learning and then we're going to talk about some feelings, which we haven't talked about what our feelings are going to be. So we're doing it live. Live feelings. Hey, Natasha, what is crypto to you? Crypto is so much more than charts and gains. It's a whole new financial system, entirely new technological rails to enable creativity, ownership, wealth building, and more. Free of credit scores and spending habits, Kraken is your easy to use, newbie friendly bridge to

[03:04] To get started, go to kraken.com backslash boys club, sign up in just a few minutes and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures Incorporated, PBI, DBA, Kraken. Two stories. The first story is about the Bitcoin's VOT ETF. And the second story is about OpenAI and the New York Times. [03:28] Oh, that was just a name drop on Name Drop. [03:33] okay okay so how much have you been getting bitcoin spot etf stuff on your timeline nestled in between jacob lrd photos how often is it coming up they're sneaking in no it's pretty much the only thing only like crypto news that i'm seeing these days is people just like edging for this bitcoin etf any any and there's several out there people are waiting for them to be one or many of them to be approved correct yeah [03:59] Look at you go. Yeah, totally. That's what I know. So, [04:03] It has reached kind of a fever pitch on the timeline because January 10th next week is the deadline for the SEC to approve the first applications for the Bitcoin Spot ETF. Now they could... [04:15] extend the deadline again, but there is this deadline that's looming that's next week. So there's a lot of anticipation, extreme anticipation, because folks are thinking that an answer is going to come soon. The price of Bitcoin has been bouncing all over the place right now. We're not a trading podcast. [04:30] But I can say that with you. That's the one thing that I ever thought that we were. I apologize.

[04:37] For folks who are new, just a quick background on what an ETF is. ETF stands for exchange traded fund. A Bitcoin spot ETF would be significant because up until now, institutional investors, so like big, big money investors. [04:54] pension funds, investment funds, they haven't been able to get involved with Bitcoin because they can't buy it and hold it. Having custody of Bitcoin, it's such like a new and novel thing. It doesn't fall within the parameters of their insurance policies and the regulation and the policies of these huge funds. So they haven't been able to get involved. [05:11] Bitcoin has been the best performing asset for the past 15 years. Wow. I know. Cool. So there's a lot of pent-up excitement on the TradFi side and also obviously on the crypto side because everyone is overextended and over-limitized. All their life savings in this industry. So a lot of anticipation on this side. All the DGens are just like, please, Trad institution, save me from myself. Totally. Totally. Me too, by the way. So what's happening right now on the timeline is there's a lot of speculation. [05:41] Every five minutes, there's a new article that's come out that's some rumor that [05:46] Goldman Sachs is involved in some like back office thing with these ETFs, or there's some obscure filing that went live that is a positive signal. And so people are just like clamoring for any type of information here. So when you say there's a lot of speculation, it's not that speculation about who has applied. That's public, right? That's totally public. Okay. The applications are in, I think there's something like eight or 10 that are pending right now. The speculation is like when

[06:16] And like what they're doing to get approved. [06:18] if they'll be approved. [06:20] If they're approved. Oh, wow. If they'll be approved. Yeah. Okay. That's the biggest one. So there's this thing called polymarket. Have you heard of polymarket? I haven't. Have you heard of the prediction marketplace, the betting prediction marketplace trend that's happening right now where people are... [06:34] Like betting on like weird random stuff. Oh, is this with bots and stuff like that? Like using AI? Like I've seen some stuff around primarily sports betting. Because that's what... [06:45] I hear about a lot in my household that there's all of these new Twitter accounts and behavior around utilizing these AI bots that are looking at the trends and then taking those trends and applying them to your sports betting. [07:00] That's not what you're talking about. No, but that's maybe for another podcast. We should talk about that. Prediction markets is anyone can spin up a bet about anything. I see. [07:09] People come in and they put down real money. And so Polymarket is one of these. And one of the biggest bets going right now is about... [07:18] the Bitcoin spot ETF being approved by January 15th. People have put in like $1.2 million into this bet. 80% of people think it's going to be approved by January 15th. But wow, that's a very heavily skewed, I would say audience. [07:31] It's crazy. People are crazy. They're not only betting on Bitcoin, the core asset, and then a layer above that is institutions betting on Bitcoin. And then a layer above that is people betting on the when and how of those institutions being approved. People are just looking to be alive.

[07:51] I think they're trying to fill a hole. Yeah. [07:55] The last thing I'll say on this is that it's kind of unrelated, but... [07:59] There is a little bit of a sentiment in some corners of crypto Twitter, which is like, are we losing the plot by like needing these institutions to come in? Like, does it have us straying too far from the core values of what crypto is? And that's a whole conversation. Related to that, I saw this post the other day where someone used the phrase... [08:18] gentrified crypto they were referring to specifically real world assets and that side of the industry but i do think it's really really funny to think about that as a phrase and [08:30] I remember having a conversation with Leighton Cusack, who some may know him here. Very smart guy. I've been in crypto a long time. He had said, I think over the summer, he was like, yeah, all this stuff is great. And... [08:44] It's... [08:45] validating of the industry and it's money and that's so great. But he... [08:49] Maybe his take has evolved since summer, but was basically like, it makes him bearish on the industry if we're looking for validation from institutions that... [08:59] traditional financial institutions. That's the whole point of what we're doing here is that there's a new way to approach this. And if we're looking for a stamp of approval from all of the people that have made a system broken in the first place or continue to perpetrate like all of these things that feel really inequitable, it's... [09:16] sort of embarrassing. Like it's a little cringe, but at the same time, [09:19] It's a lot of money and a lot of players that don't feel a comfortability getting involved without having some parameters in place. So interesting stuff. Interesting stuff. Can't wait to DM Leighton and let him know that he had a hot take on this podcast. Hot take.

[09:43] Okay, second story. The New York Times has sued OpenAI and Microsoft. [09:49] Oh, I've been dying to learn more about this. Here we are. Thank you. We've arrived. Excellent news. The lawsuit is about opening Microsoft illegally scraping content from New York Times. So this news story broke during the Christmas shutdown, December 27th. So there was not a lot of chat about it, but it's pretty historic in terms of a case. And it could result in billions of dollars in damages. [10:19] AI. So the Times is saying that millions of articles were used to train open AI chatbots. This we know this is not being disputed. That's fact. That's commonly known fact. [10:30] What the Times is saying in this case is that OpenAI isn't just using the articles for training. What the Times is saying is that OpenAI has effectively become a competitor to the Times because they're using verbatim word for word articles. There are examples where you can, for example, put in, I would like to... [10:50] see a review for a blender. And what pops up is essentially a wire cutter article, except it has all the wire cutter links and referral links and author name and all that stripped out. Okay. And this content would otherwise be paywalled on the times. So the times is a paywall for this content. [11:07] you're hitting that as a user, you could... [11:10] go over to OpenAI, have a prompt that would basically feed you back

[11:14] what is essentially a Times article and skip the paywall. And that is hugely damaging to their business. [11:21] Additionally, [11:22] not only the paywall, but also the affiliate links. The Times is making... [11:26] money every time somebody goes and says, what blender do I buy? And then they click that link and they buy that blender. They're getting a small, it's small, but when you're the New York Times and you have the reach that they have, that's a line item for sure in their P&L. And if that's no longer being attributed to them, then they're losing out on that revenue as well. Totally. It's subscriber revenue, it's affiliate link revenue. And also it's just generally, if there's this perception that open AI is a reliable and trustworthy place to get news, because it's the same content that you would get from the New York Times, [11:56] just them having used their content for training. It's what they're calling memorization. The verbatim repeating of content is what's really, really problematic for the times and the basis of this lawsuit. So it's a big deal. There's kind of some chat that... [12:15] The New York Times had approached OpenAI back in April and there was like some negotiation that was like maybe going to start happening. And then OpenAI walked away from it and that this could be some retaliation because OpenAI has done something. [12:28] licensing deals with other media companies. So the Associated Press, famously, they have a licensing deal with them. But it could be that the New York Times is looking for like ongoing royalties, which totally upends the open AI business model. So there's a lot of kind of speculation here around like the backstory to how we got to this place where now there's this lawsuit. But okay, that's basically what happened. One thing to note is that the EAC folks

[12:50] don't agree with this lawsuit. They do not like this lawsuit. Yeah. So I went on to something called like regulation.gov and there's a place, like there's this place where you can submit feedback and comments. And Andreessen Orowitz had submitted basically some notes to the trademark office about this case. Whoa. And, [13:09] I found that I read it. And by Reddit, I mean, I had chat GPT summarize the big points of it. But basically, Andrew Sinhore was saying that using copyrighted content to train AI models should be considered fair use because it doesn't store the material, but it's just like learning the patterns and the facts. That's kind of upended in what the Times is saying here around like the verbatim use. And that licensing the data would be just really impractical, would stifle innovation. [13:39] of the U.S. in the AI race and national security. One point that they did make that I thought was interesting was that their kind of through line is that AI is for augmenting human intelligence and not replacing it. And that like, that's how we should be thinking about all these things that are coming out. So I don't know, kind of interesting. Wow, very interesting. Very interesting. I wonder, this could be just like such a stupid thing to say, and apologies ahead of time. But why can't it be similar to Wikipedia, where you're like, here's the source? [14:09] go check it out i don't know i'm sort of just like it doesn't seem like open ai is wanting to build an affiliate linking business and so it's like couldn't they just say like okay we're just gonna use your affiliate links right right right right right right and then you're getting like broader distribution than ever before like here's our sort here's the source for where we got this information you could go read more on this article if it's like literally just scraping it and i think open ai would say that it's not that simple and that they're not yeah

[14:37] Right. And... [14:38] So, [14:40] It doesn't work. I think that that's probably... Man, I really thought we had a breakthrough for everybody here. Get Sam Altman on the horn. [14:49] Thank you. Great. I'm so... I learned. I learned something. And I hope that my... [14:54] the overlords that are listening... [14:57] On my Twitter, feed me some more educational content. You're ready. You're back in the saddle. One other thing that I want to make sure you're aware of is that this week, OpenAI is planning to launch its store for GPTs, which is basically like... [15:12] an app store for gpts where people can put in a bunch of recipe books and like have it just be like a recipe gpt where you're asking a specific question this is what he previewed at the developer day right [15:23] It is. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And this is launching this week. I've been watching the BlackBerry show or limited series. I think it is. Oh, what's this? I'm in need of a new show. So it's I don't know that I'm going to recommend it, but it's on the origin story of BlackBerry. [15:38] Blackberry Farms? Blackberry Phone. [15:41] oh my gosh what's blackberry farms oh my gosh really high-end hotel in Tennessee I was like cool well it's like privately owned by a very wealthy family so I was like oh is there some drama but yeah yeah exactly no like the click click keyboard black yes yes I'm tracking I'm [16:05] They famously get their lunch eaten by the iPhone release and the Apple iPhone. And one of the big storylines is about the App Store being this like really big revolutionary thing. And so I think that that's like kind of what people are thinking is going to be similar for this moment for opening. History. History.

[16:22] being made. [16:23] There it is. Potentially. Cool. When you're first getting started with crypto, it can be scary. Am I doing this right? Is this just like my bank or trading app? How is it new and different? Well, that's why we love Kraken. They have a 24-7, 365 customer support team that's there to hold your hand all along the way. This isn't a nine-to-five, Monday-to-Friday bank. This is crypto. It's all the time. Anyone's welcome. Open-door policy. Come one, come all. Try something new at [16:53] Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures, Inc. PVI, DBA, Kraken. So I have a feeling. Okay, great. [17:07] Let's hear it. Crypto. [17:09] Mm-hmm. [17:10] Is toxic right now. Uh-huh. And... [17:14] No one wants to touch it as a idea, concept, industry. [17:21] Anything. [17:22] It's just like, unless you're in this industry and working in it. [17:27] Everyone else thinks it's [17:29] at best dorky and ineffective and at worst scammy and... [17:35] exploitative and morally evil evil and so that is really challenging and [17:46] when doing things that we're doing [17:50] Like, for example, planning...

[17:52] Brand new, our conference conference. [17:55] in Austin in March, you're going to hear us talk a lot about it. And you just have to be kind, because it's a big deal for us. So we're gonna be talking about it a lot. But it's hard when we're doing something like brand new, which is like, we're intentionally going to a place that isn't crypto native and isn't crypto friendly, necessarily. So, [18:13] In South by Southwest, this big tech, traditional tech conference and culture conference. We're going into the belly of that beast to try and have this conversation that's a positive and different conversation about crypto. But that's hard because... [18:26] Everyone thinks crypto sucks. And... [18:30] So we are making life very hard for ourselves. We're not like going and doing brand new at East Denver or one of these places where like – [18:37] We know we could get a million people [18:39] to come and like have... [18:40] Whatever. So it's hard. It's hard to be working in crypto right now and be doing the kind of work that's trying to expand the... [18:50] what audience and reach of this industry and what we're doing and [18:53] I'm just confronted by that every day. I'm confronted by that in the brand new work. I'm confronted on that, like in social media, when we're trying to like bridge into new conversations and then like, [19:03] We'll get people that are interested in what we're doing. And then they come to our profile and says crypto on it. And it's like, they're like, I don't, I don't. [19:08] I'm not interested in that. Like, I'm not interested in... But... [19:11] So anyway, that's a feeling that I'm having. [19:13] Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've talked about this before because it's a feeling that feels extremely present every day, but there's moments where it peaks everywhere.

[19:23] in that feeling. And I think especially when you're launching something or when you're putting something out into the world or [19:28] you're pushing the boundaries on things that we've done in the past, which is where we're at right now, where we're like, [19:33] We have this conference. We've been working so hard on it behind the scenes and, um, [19:38] have talked about it, but now we're like actively... [19:41] marketing and promoting it and getting it in front of people. And it's very obvious that it's a crypto thing and that that's what we're into and excited about and our community and what we want to talk about. And I'm [19:55] people have a reaction to that. And I think that, [19:59] There is... [20:01] a real difficulty in... [20:03] trying to bring... [20:06] folks into the fold around that conversation. [20:09] when [20:11] there's just like a real lack of interest, like apathy around it. Like either they hate it or they're apathetic about it. And I also think there's something that I feel around like, [20:21] When we're thinking about programming for brand new, when we're thinking about content that we do, when we're thinking about the things that I'm interested in and excited to talk about. [20:29] It's not just crypto. I have all these other things that I'm really interested in and that I think are in an interesting moment because of... [20:38] world that we're living in and the technology that's being developed and the builders that are thinking about the [20:42] areas totally outside of crypto. And I feel a tension between, I think a lot of people in crypto because there's been so much negativity around it. And so they've had to become evangelists for this industry and they've had to take their heels in. Yeah. And like so pure about it. And so one note about what they're into and it makes it really difficult because it's,

[21:06] I want crypto to be a part of the conversation, but it's not the only conversation I'm interested in having. And it feels like we're sort of in a hard position where, [21:15] like not really but like I can see people being like wow you're drawing outside the lines of the things that you guys talk about and I'm [21:23] For me, I'm like... [21:24] All of these things are happening around the same time and in the same moment. And it's only interesting if all the things that we're working on in crypto also affect content creation and shopping and art and sports and markets and all of these other industries that I think about all the time and wonder what they're going to look like in 5, 10, 15 years. And part of our job is connecting those dots and bringing people into the room and making [21:54] making space for networking collaboration and stuff like that and drawing the lines between these things that don't seemingly have a lot of connection and sometimes that work just feels like really difficult when [22:04] sentiment around crypto really sucks right now and it has frankly for the past 18 months [22:09] Plus, and we're trying to do this thing that's bridging the gap between all these different industries. And I think I've gotten feedback from people in crypto who are like, man, I'm so excited about what you guys are doing. I don't know how you're going to do it. I don't know how you're going to like, bring all these different people and have these conversations and it feel cohesive. And yeah, [22:28] I'm like, yeah, it's really hard. Yeah. That feels really present, putting stuff out around brand new and trying to be thoughtful about making sure that we're delivering on the things that we're excited about while also reaching brand new people. Totally. The work to grow the pie process.

[22:46] in this industry is... [22:49] so hard. And also if it doesn't happen, [22:53] It's, there's no industry. So it's, I don't know, it's just, it's just tough. And I feel really confronted by it in this work, even if it's on... [23:04] a smaller scale because it's a one-day summit or whatever. It's just like, it's [23:09] What's up? [23:10] So that's the feeling. I will say you and I, [23:13] have been told by [23:15] basically anybody who's ever worked with us, that we lack an insane amount of perspective. And we're so hard on ourselves. And I do think that it's true. We just have a really high bar for what we want. [23:28] to put out [23:29] in the world and we don't want people to spend money on things that is not exciting and cool and interesting and fun and i think that that [23:37] Bar is good, but I think it also just like puts, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to, to, to, [23:43] get to something different. [23:45] that we're both feel really good about for us to feel really good about it. It has to feel really excellent and present to that. If we do this work well, if we bring people who would never come to a crypto conference to brand new, if we bring people into the fold that have been really skeptical of crypto or don't really understand it or like, okay, but I'll show up because for whatever reason they decide to, it's like, [24:08] If you're a Christian and you bring your friend to church, you're like, man, better deliver. Like this moment better be good.

[24:16] and that's up to us to do you know yeah and so i think that that's part of it as well as like as people are trying to buy tickets as like we're locking in programming i'm just like i don't want to disappoint anybody i want to make sure that we're like [24:32] providing an experience and, and, and, [24:36] And bringing some insight for people who are like testing the waters. Totally. That's the feeling. We are really excited. We're really excited about brand new. We really are. We really are. I don't think that this conversation, maybe I guess you could read it one way where it's like, we're feeling frustrated around it, but, but I think it's, [24:54] It's only coming from a place of like wanting it to be excellent. Yes. And it's shaping up to be. And there are moments where. [25:04] it's really confronting because... [25:06] Everyone thanks. [25:07] I just read a joke. [25:11] Okay. That's that. [25:14] See you later. Bye. Bye.